From da902e74f0943fcecfbebbb1b8825ed41b03aa52 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Tim Wicinski Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:57:59 -0400 Subject: [PATCH] minutes --- .../interim-2022-dnsop-02-minutes.txt | 301 ++++++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 301 insertions(+) create mode 100644 interim-2022-dnsop-02/interim-2022-dnsop-02-minutes.txt diff --git a/interim-2022-dnsop-02/interim-2022-dnsop-02-minutes.txt b/interim-2022-dnsop-02/interim-2022-dnsop-02-minutes.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..5ce82b7 --- /dev/null +++ b/interim-2022-dnsop-02/interim-2022-dnsop-02-minutes.txt @@ -0,0 +1,301 @@ +# DNS Operations (DNSOP) Working Group +## interim-2022-dnsop-02 + + +### Chairs +* Benno Overeinder [benno@nlnetlabs.nl](benno@nlnetlabs.nl) +* Suzanne Woolf [suzworldwide@gmail.com](suzworldwide@gmail.com) +* Tim Wicinski [tjw.ietf@gmail.com](tjw.ietf@gmail.com) + +### IESG Overlord +* Warren Kumari [warren@kumari.net](warren@kumari.net) + +### Document Status +* [Github](https://github.com/ietf-wg-dnsop/wg-materials/blob/main/dnsop-document-status.md) +* [Datatracker](https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/documents/) +* [Propose Slides](https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2022-dnsop-02/session/dnsop) + + +## Session interim-2022-dnsop-02 + +* Date: 26 September 2022 +* Time: 15:00-16:00 UTC +* MeetEcho: [https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=40f2f302-13a7-477b-b6fd-3d3d0754f05f](https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=40f2f302-13a7-477b-b6fd-3d3d0754f05f) + +* Jabber: [dnsop@jabber.ietf.org](dnsop@jabber.ietf.org) +* Minutes: [https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-dnsop-02-dnsop](https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-dnsop-02-dnsop) + + +## Agenda + +### Administrivia + +* Agenda Bashing, Blue Sheets, etc, 5 min + + +### Current Working Group Business + +* DNS Terminology + - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc8499bis/ + - Paul Hoffman and Kazunori Fujiwara, 55 min + - Chairs Action: + +Paul Hoffman(PH): Are we interept original document; or new definitions based on current DNS usage + + +### Definition of Bailiwick + +* Number of proposals +* Definition of in-bailiwick + - in-domain + - sibling domain + - out-of-bailiwick + +Warren Kumari(WK): should not fully drop a definition, but note no longer using. + +PH: What should be saying on how its defined. + +John Levine(JH): don't try to define now + +PH: Has been used in the past, but we don't really know anymore + +Jim Reid(JR): drop the term in-baliwick we must mention not to define it + + +* Drop the term “in-bailiwick” + - Only use “in-domain” and “sibling domain”? + +**Action** Pull the formal definition and write a historical definition + + + +* Scope of use of bailiwick + - Strict use with A/AAAA: “needed for DNS resolution” + - Other RR types for DNSSEC, SVCB, … + +PH: in-baliwick consensus call Old vs Current; Current means future + +Kazunori Fujiwara: I think the terms *bailiwick, in-domain, sibling are necessary for glue is not optional draft. +(in-domain glue is necessary, sibling glue is optional, out-of-bailiwick glue SHOULD be ignored) + + +### Definition of glue + +* Definition of glue (on DNSOP mailing list, plus some small amendments) + - “Glue is non-authoritative data in a zone that is transmitted in the additional section of a referral response on the basis that the data might be necessary for resolution to proceed at the referred name servers.” + +* Necessary vs. useful discussion + - too broad definition? + - use “glue for in-domain/sibling domain name servers” as a term (from draft glue-is-not-optional) + +PH: definition of glue has changed over time + +Duane Wessels: This definition does not say which RRTypes are used, we may need a registry +Narrow definition for now. + +List of RRTypes + +Defintion use necessary or useful + +**action** wording on in-domain + +### Definition of sibling glue + +* Definition of sibling zone and glue + +* Sibling zones: two zones whose delegations are in the same parent zone. + +* Sibling glue: addresses of nameservers that are in a sibling zone. + +* Necessary vs. useful interpretation + - Same as for in-domain glue? + +sibling zone +sibling glue + + +``` +Jim Reid 11:01 +Is anyone speaking or is my audio bust? + +Eliot Lear 11:02 +I can hear you + +Sean Turner 11:02 +I can hear. + +Warren Kumari 11:02 +I can hear you + +Suzanne Woolf 11:02 +Benno sounds fine + +Tim Wicinski 11:02 +https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-dnsop-02-dnsop?edit + +Jim Reid 11:02 +Thanks Benno. I hear you OK. + +Tim Wicinski 11:02 +I'll be taking notes today +But primary today is putting together wording on baliwick + +Kazunori Fujiwara 11:07 +draft-ietf-dnsop-glue-is-not-optional-06 uses "in-domain" and "sibling", However, it does not define these words and does not refer RFC8499... + +Tim Wicinski 11:08 +Correct - what should come out of this discussion is terminology that the glue-is-not-optional draft will use. +My opinion is that one goal of the terminology doc was to create current definitions +but we want to hear from y'all +I copied/pasted the 8499 text at the end of the HedgeDoc https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-dnsop-02-dnsop?edit + +Kazunori Fujiwara 11:15 +"in-bailiwick" is often used in non-IETF documents. + +Warren Kumari 11:15 +"current definitions" + a note that the definition has changed over time so that people reading historic documents are not confused? Or jsut "this is what it means, be told" ? + +Wes Hardaker 11:17 +it exists in way too many docs and logs to not define it + +PE 11:17 +so you mean definition as more histrorical context than current best use of term? + +Warren Kumari 11:17 +@PE : Yah, kinda. "I jsut read a document with this term, but had no idea what it means" help... + +Tim Wicinski 11:20 +broken up on my end + +Warren Kumari 11:20 +Not just at Benos emd. Audio dropped out for me too + +John Levine 11:20 +Yes, and don not try to define it now + +Roy Arends 11:21 +audio dropped here too + +John Levine 11:21 +Sorry bad ipad audio +Only as a historical use + +Suzanne Woolf 11:22 +IMO it's okay to admit the term is widely used but ambiguous. + +Paul Hoffman 11:24 +I like "historical term" + +Duane Wessels 11:24 +agreed + +Tim Wicinski 11:25 +yes + +Kazunori Fujiwara 11:26 +For "in-domain" and "sibling", there was no clear definition of terminology before RFC 7719, but I thought it was necessary, so I borrowed terminology from Peter Koch's draft. + +Jim Reid 11:27 +@ Wes, I think it's impractical to come up with definitions for how that term as been used in all those non-IETF docs. IMO a "we chose not do that" is the right way forward. + +Tim Wicinski 11:29 +"Pull the formal definition of baliwick and write a historical definition" + +Kazunori Fujiwara 11:29 +I think the terms *bailiwick, in-domain, sibling are necessary for glue is not optional draft. + +Tim Wicinski 11:29 +I do agree + +Duane Wessels 11:31 +no audio, I'll use chat +is this slide really about use of glue? +rather than use of in-bailiwick? + +Warren Kumari 11:32 +I don't really care -- for my use case, I'm assuming people can solve their issue with: https://www.google.com/search?q=in+ballwick + +Duane Wessels 11:32 +ok, thanks +yes I think that would be best +I'd rather not define the terms in the glue is not optional doc +agreed + +Tim Wicinski 11:35 +strict definition or more ambigious historical? + +Duane Wessels 11:36 +sorry still no audio for me + +Kazunori Fujiwara 11:39 +(in-domain glue is necessary, sibling glue is optional, out-of-bailiwick glue is unnecessary) + +Tim Wicinski 11:39 +Thank You Kazunori ! + +Kazunori Fujiwara 11:40 +(out-of-bailiwick glue SHOULD be ignored, sorry) + +Tim Wicinski 11:41 +I'm happy of not updating 2181 + +John Levine 11:42 +Agree with Paul, most useful to describe fuzzy existing practice +then I hope say this is the preferred meaning + +Kazunori Fujiwara 11:43 +RFC 2181 5.4.1 Ranking Data seems to target older nameserver implementations that merge all the data. + +Tim Wicinski 11:48 +My feeling is in the future something like SVCB may become glue, we're not there yet + +Kazunori Fujiwara 11:52 +Is the EXCHANGE A/AAAA that comes with the MX RR glue ? + +John Levine 11:52 +Not as I've ever understood it + +Duane Wessels 11:53 +@kazunori I'd say no because those could be done as a separate query + +John Levine 11:54 +we had a big fight about sibling glue +since it only works sometimes + +Kazunori Fujiwara 11:56 +in-domain, sibling, out-of-bailiwick are exclusive. +in-bailiwick = in-domain + sibling + +Warren Kumari 11:58 +I dont. + +Paul Hoffman 11:58 +Please: no + +Peter Thomassen 11:58 +I'll have to leave + +Warren Kumari 11:58 +I have another meeting now + +Eliot Lear 11:58 +nah + +Paul Hoffman 11:59 +It's not a short conversation + +Eliot Lear 11:59 +^^^ + +Sean Turner 11:59 +until next time + +Eliot Lear 11:59 +thanks chairs + +Kazunori Fujiwara12:00 +Thank you. + +Suzanne Woolf12:00 +Thanks all, this was a good session! +